Comments on: “Participate in community!” they said… http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/ Useful bits of code Sun, 11 Dec 2011 01:04:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Looking back and into the future – Part I « Tomsondev Blog http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-826 Looking back and into the future – Part I « Tomsondev Blog Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:46:35 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-826 [...] the time to work on 3.x (when reading blogs like this from Eugene Ostroukhov my willingness to invest spare time on it is equal to 0) TOTAL [...] [...] the time to work on 3.x (when reading blogs like this from Eugene Ostroukhov my willingness to invest spare time on it is equal to 0) TOTAL [...]

]]> By: When you’re right, there is no middle ground « Dark Views http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-823 When you’re right, there is no middle ground « Dark Views Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:24:13 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-823 [...] bills. I nodded like everyone else. And we talked about Eugene Ostroukhov and his complaint ““Participate in community!” they said…“. And I immediately saw a parallel in my own history. I had a similar, painful experience [...] [...] bills. I nodded like everyone else. And we talked about Eugene Ostroukhov and his complaint ““Participate in community!” they said…“. And I immediately saw a parallel in my own history. I had a similar, painful experience [...]

]]> By: Eugene Ostroukhov http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-695 Eugene Ostroukhov Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:20:42 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-695 Please note the disclamer in the sidebar - "Any opinions expressed here are my views only, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or their affiliates." :) I'm just a newcomer of the Symbian Foundation so this opinion is coming from my past work. But the problem is really that I'm bringing this prejudice with me. Helping Eclipse is a great thing - if you have resources to share. I believe the greatest thing about eclipse.org and open source in general is that it enables small companies create great software that may compete with the solution from the corporations. It is really hard to have developer part-time committing to Eclipse.org when the product is built by a team of two. And really, this post is not about "we can't get our changes into central repository". It is about "people don't participate because their patches are ignored and facelifting the site won't help". Please note the disclamer in the sidebar – “Any opinions expressed here are my views only, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or their affiliates.” :) I’m just a newcomer of the Symbian Foundation so this opinion is coming from my past work. But the problem is really that I’m bringing this prejudice with me.
Helping Eclipse is a great thing – if you have resources to share. I believe the greatest thing about eclipse.org and open source in general is that it enables small companies create great software that may compete with the solution from the corporations. It is really hard to have developer part-time committing to Eclipse.org when the product is built by a team of two.

And really, this post is not about “we can’t get our changes into central repository”. It is about “people don’t participate because their patches are ignored and facelifting the site won’t help”.

]]> By: Eugene Ostroukhov http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-693 Eugene Ostroukhov Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:12:05 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-693 Symbian Foundation is really interested in working with Eclipse.org. And I'm really glad I will be part of these efforts. Symbian Foundation is really interested in working with Eclipse.org. And I’m really glad I will be part of these efforts.

]]> By: Chris Aniszczyk http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-692 Chris Aniszczyk Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:53:22 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-692 This is completely the wrong attitude to take in my opinion. I think in the majority of the cases, patches have been accepted and applied. Have all? No, but this is a fact of any environment that has a set of limited resources. If certain open source components are critical to your business, how about considering investing some resources and stating your interest in participating in the project? The quickest path to ensure your work gets into the projects you care about is to become a committer. For patches that linger, feel free to bug the committers more. Nagging surprisingly works in most cases. In the end, just like in life, it's all about relationships. If committers trust you and there's a relationship there, your patches will get in faster. On certain core projects, committers have to be very careful to preserve API and behavior... which many contributors may not care about. In regards to the DVCS note, it will definitely make it easier for people to maintain their own forks and contribute their fixes back. Part of the problem of currently maintaining your fork is the maintenance of patches and keeping up with Eclipse as it evolves. Git makes this much easier than it currently is with CVS and SVN. This is why I'm pushing big to enable Git at Eclipse. On top of that, we may want to consider having something where companies can "publicly" fork certain Eclipse projects so people are aware of it. On a side note Eugene, if the Symbian Foundation would like to be more involved at Eclipse, there are ways to make that happen :) This is completely the wrong attitude to take in my opinion. I think in the majority of the cases, patches have been accepted and applied. Have all? No, but this is a fact of any environment that has a set of limited resources.

If certain open source components are critical to your business, how about considering investing some resources and stating your interest in participating in the project? The quickest path to ensure your work gets into the projects you care about is to become a committer.

For patches that linger, feel free to bug the committers more. Nagging surprisingly works in most cases.

In the end, just like in life, it’s all about relationships. If committers trust you and there’s a relationship there, your patches will get in faster. On certain core projects, committers have to be very careful to preserve API and behavior… which many contributors may not care about.

In regards to the DVCS note, it will definitely make it easier for people to maintain their own forks and contribute their fixes back. Part of the problem of currently maintaining your fork is the maintenance of patches and keeping up with Eclipse as it evolves. Git makes this much easier than it currently is with CVS and SVN. This is why I’m pushing big to enable Git at Eclipse. On top of that, we may want to consider having something where companies can “publicly” fork certain Eclipse projects so people are aware of it.

On a side note Eugene, if the Symbian Foundation would like to be more involved at Eclipse, there are ways to make that happen :)

]]> By: Elias Volanakis http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-686 Elias Volanakis Sat, 12 Dec 2009 00:06:27 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-686 I think Eugene has a valid point. In my experience most projects are good in processing patches, but a few are bad. The problem from my POV is that for outsiders it is impossible to tell before hand what to expect from a project and what communication channels exist to move bug resolution forward: - What is the average time to resolve a bug? - How much re-work / additional work is expected? - How long should I wait before "nagging"? - This issue is stuck. Who can I PAY to resolve bugs or process patches right now ? Some quick ideas: - Projects should publish information about how to resolve bugs, contract support, average bug resolution times - From my POV it's better to say this needs work, would you like to contract me or somebody to do this, instead of just ignoring the issue. - A bugzilla field for attaching a "bounty" to bugs - as in I would like to pay X dollars to have this fixed. - A directory of committers than can be contracted to fix bugs quickly. It is not apparent to outsiders who is available for this type of work. I think Eugene has a valid point. In my experience most projects are good in processing patches, but a few are bad.

The problem from my POV is that for outsiders it is impossible to tell before hand what to expect from a project and what communication channels exist to move bug resolution forward:

- What is the average time to resolve a bug?
- How much re-work / additional work is expected?
- How long should I wait before “nagging”?
- This issue is stuck. Who can I PAY to resolve bugs or process patches right now ?

Some quick ideas:

- Projects should publish information about how to resolve bugs, contract support, average bug resolution times
- From my POV it’s better to say this needs work, would you like to contract me or somebody to do this, instead of just ignoring the issue.
- A bugzilla field for attaching a “bounty” to bugs – as in I would like to pay X dollars to have this fixed.
- A directory of committers than can be contracted to fix bugs quickly. It is not apparent to outsiders who is available for this type of work.

]]> By: John Arthorne http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-685 John Arthorne Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:39:11 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-685 I agree that bugs with patches don't get enough attention, but unfortunately there just aren't enough committers to handle them all. There are >1000 open bugs with patches in the Eclipse top-level project (http://tinyurl.com/eclipseopenwithpatch), and only a small number of active committers able to commit them. However, very many patches *do* get a applied, so it's hard to draw any interesting conclusion from a small sample. You can easily browse the Eclipse project IP log to see a list of contributed patches that were actually applied in 3.5: http://www.eclipse.org/eclipse/development/project-log-files/eclipse_project_3_5_log.html I agree that bugs with patches don’t get enough attention, but unfortunately there just aren’t enough committers to handle them all. There are >1000 open bugs with patches in the Eclipse top-level project (http://tinyurl.com/eclipseopenwithpatch), and only a small number of active committers able to commit them. However, very many patches *do* get a applied, so it’s hard to draw any interesting conclusion from a small sample. You can easily browse the Eclipse project IP log to see a list of contributed patches that were actually applied in 3.5:

http://www.eclipse.org/eclipse/development/project-log-files/eclipse_project_3_5_log.html

]]> By: Alexander Smirnoff http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-683 Alexander Smirnoff Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:14:48 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-683 I agree with Eugene on this point. Being a long follower of Eclipse and developer of the commercial products based on Eclipse, just only makes me a "friend" (or whatever it means when you donate the money) of Eclipse and far away from the feeling myself a contributor or being interested feeling like one, even though I filed a bugs (with patches). I see the patch I have submitted few months ago lying dead (bug is tiny and obvious in PDE) without any response or QA assignment and that is exactly what makes me less interesting to submit something similar next time. I also understand that the voices in open community are heard based on meritocracy principle. But what it is has to do with QA? If the Foundation is a "trade association" or whatever commercial entity it may call itself, it makes really lousy work with QA of it's main product. I would love to see higher standards on bug tracking and resolutions. This would help not only the product, but also myself feeling more likely to contribute next time. Hope I'll be heard. I agree with Eugene on this point. Being a long follower of Eclipse and developer of the commercial products based on Eclipse, just only makes me a “friend” (or whatever it means when you donate the money) of Eclipse and far away from the feeling myself a contributor or being interested feeling like one, even though I filed a bugs (with patches).

I see the patch I have submitted few months ago lying dead (bug is tiny and obvious in PDE) without any response or QA assignment and that is exactly what makes me less interesting to submit something similar next time.

I also understand that the voices in open community are heard based on meritocracy principle. But what it is has to do with QA? If the Foundation is a “trade association” or whatever commercial entity it may call itself, it makes really lousy work with QA of it’s main product.

I would love to see higher standards on bug tracking and resolutions. This would help not only the product, but also myself feeling more likely to contribute next time. Hope I’ll be heard.

]]> By: Donald Smith http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-682 Donald Smith Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:47:08 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-682 Just ran a few bugzilla queries and easily found 1000's of cases that counter the three posted here. Just ran a few bugzilla queries and easily found 1000′s of cases that counter the three posted here.

]]> By: Lars Vogel http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/2009/12/11/participate-in-community-they-said/comment-page-1/#comment-680 Lars Vogel Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:02:00 +0000 http://eclipseblog.ostroukhovs.com/?p=112#comment-680 My personal experience with providing bugs and patches is completely positive. I'm always surprised how fast the Eclipse Committers react and about the quality of the feedback. My personal experience with providing bugs and patches is completely positive. I’m always surprised how fast the Eclipse Committers react and about the quality of the feedback.

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